Nice to see the TCA being very fast to get rid of these rogue elements. As Keith Warburton says all trades will have this type of problem. We just have to make sure that they do not exist in reputable organizations like the TCA.

We still believe that an organisation like the TCA is the way forward for companies to show that they try to uphold certain standards.

Nic Carter-Jones
New Millennium Internet Services Ltd nm dot tm

What is the criterea for being a member of the TCA and how is it monitored? I find it hard to believe that Revival Computers have only just started acting this way and so I am interested in how the TCA can reassure it's Honest Clients that it is worth being a member and what reassurances it can offer to Customers that Compnaies with TCA membership are indeed monitored fully.

Perhaps this should be the spur for the TCA to become a governing body like Corgi was for the gas trade. After all, Corgi was particularly apt at rooting out the cowboys in that industry; maybe it is time we had a compulsory body like that for repairs.

The question is whether Keith and Robert would be willing to try and push for this.

Suspension or expulsion from the TCA, that'll make the rogue traders think twice before comitting these acts won't it!

Trade associations are what it's members make it, whether that be the TCA, Itacs, Nascr etc. It is the apathy of non-members who sit on the sidelines criticising or saying where was the Trade Body when a big issue arises. Taking out the duplicate memberships of such bodies, I would estimate that across our sector there are less than 1000 businesses who see a value in DEVELOPING our trade association movements. By developing I mean joining and being pro-active. Those who are dedicated to such tasks, whether paid or voluntary, put in immense application beyond the norm.

The electrical sector has provided solid support for it's trade body to such an extent that top table representation on WEEE consultation and implementation was achieved. Why can't the inependent IT sector. Is it because most are hobbyist and those who transgress, regardless of business growth, retain that status and never develop into one that accepts the need for professional ethics and standards. Associations cannot migrate to pro-active rather than reactive enforcement without a membership critical mass and the funds that this introduces.

In a previous life I was an independent Financial Advisor in an industry which relied on self regulation. It was a joke and the public suffered big time. So The Govenment of the day brought in the Financial Services act which decimated the small independent sector and left the big insurance companies untouched. To the cost of many pension and mortgage endowment policy holders we now know that it was the big guys that were the problem. What I'm getting at here is that there is a real danger that if we do not bring in some meaningful self regulation and registration we may find that we have if forced on us by a Government who will set it up in such a way that it protects the big guys (cause they pay the most tax and are the most easily regulated) and decimates the small independent sector. Remember we have Governments and the European Union who delight in passing legislation on subjects on which they have no knowledge at all.

I don't disagree in principle, but the bottom line is all about accreditation. Can I ask what checks (that's -cks, not -ques) are put in place before membership to the TCA (or PCA before it) is granted? The Corgi example is well-made by another poster above.

Face it, since day one TCA/PCA membership is about as meaningful as a degree certificate bought off the web. It signifies nothing. I'm sure we've all had the begging letter emails about the alleged benefits of signing up for our hard-earned pounds, including gala dinners at some Holiday In somewhere. Get a real trade association, not some lame duck outfit keeping a few inept toothless old buffers in brown corduroy trousers.

I think we are agreeing to agree. And Chris's point above is very real indeed. There are some good people running the PCA/TCA/Brigantia/Itacs/Nascr so disagree with the personality description. But that's subjective and each to his opinion.

All these are hampered: membership = funds = development = a potential accreditation scheme. I'm an Itacs, not PCA member. And accreditation was one of its founding aspirations. But where are the new members believing in this - to make it happen. It's not totally funds that are the issue but a little donation of free time from each believing business to develop such. Cicken and egg.

The Sky story could repeat with many other news/profile hungry organisations doing the same through the future.

No organisation ever succeeds with anything without failing on some. Anyone who has never failed has never tried. All anyone can ask for is visible honest endeavour. In my opinion the organisations you quote have made that effort.

Honest endeavour or lack of. That's where this story started, isn't it.

"Born out of the Gas Board as a membership of leading gas installers, CORGI went on to run the mandatory gas scheme for government for many years." There's 3 critical elements in this statement: "Gas Board" & "Government" & "mandatory". CORGI was never a trade association as such.

There is little record of personal computers blowing up with considerable loss of life, nor of them asphyxiating people in the dead of night. I don't see any true monopoly suppliers of PC's, as British Gas was of fuel, and if the government can't manage to give the police enough support to tackle attempts at fraud on a massive scale by organised crime gangs, it might seem a tad unrealistic to expect them to invest in trying to catch nasty little f***ers like we saw in that Sky News report. Sure, there might be a bit of activity from local trading standards departments, but that'll be it.

It is therefore down to the industry to regulate itself. And of course everyone would support that stance ... until they are asked to put their hand in their pocket, either by paying for an audit and subsequent "guaranteed" certification, or else by volunteering to carry it out on their neighbours on behalf of a trade body ... and that's something else that'll not happen any time soon. And don't forget, you'll have to pay for the inspection visit at least once every year in order for the certification to be meaningful. How much would it be appropriate to charge? Whilst some visits might get by with just two or three hours, others might need the best part of a day - add travelling time & expenses to that ... you can do the sums. How many resellers are up for it?

We seem therefore to be left with the idea of self-certification, policed by complaint and swift action when necessary.

In my opinion trade associations should be inclusive, and encourage new start ups / new members to improve their professionalism by association & example, as it were. TA's have a role to play in improving the professionalism in their industries, we have sought to do so by offering advice on many business issues to our members - and further afield, and despite what that one or two (well, seemingly just the one) foolish & ignorant people might assert, from the feedback we get from traders and the public alike, we know our efforts are appreciated.

The PCA has continually developed to reflect changes in market conditions, and we will continue to do so - the most recent is the development of TCA, the Technology Channels Association, and we are using this opportunity to strengthen the Code even further. Naturally, we'd like every technology purchase in the land to be aware of the TCA, it's code and it's Members, therefore we shall consider introducing a levy of £500 per member to pay for a £1/2 million advertising campaign to encourage people to ensure the next time they get the old boiler seen to (DerekB??) they'll use one of our own gas installers. Oops, sorry, can that. Wrong industry.

People volunteer to get involved in bodies such as trade associations from a desire to give something back & to improve their industry, and I'd like to take this opportunity to recognise that positive attitude, whether they are the volunteers that run NASCR, ITACS or the TCA. They are decent, good hearted people, and we need more of the same!

Revival applied for membership in February and this was the first time since then that we'd heard anything untoward about them; their membership was suspended within a couple of hours. We have given them chance to offer an explanation and none was forthcoming and so we'll be formally expelling them tomorrow. We have the right, according to our code to publicly expel members, and the fact that the news of their suspension made the news here and elsewhere shows that this approach isn't entirely toothless!

Well said, Keith.

I find myself to have seemingly posted above twice in succession. The intervening post seems to have disappeared "without trace". Give it "24 Hours" and it might return. Maybe just "lost".

Strangely, my previous post seems to have disappeared. A more cynical man than I would suspect censorship. Simple question to Mr Warburton (he of the "please come along to our annual dinner... it's only £40 per head and there are as many Iceland vol-au-vents as you can eat")... exactly how does PCA/TCA membership benefit anyone, save the "management"? It offers resellers precisely nothing and clearly signifies less than nothing in terms of any commitment to high standards/ethical practices as far as end-users go. Why is it any more worthwhile than a degree bought off the Internet? (In fact, given the potential to mislead the buying public, I'm sure it's far more pernicious than that).

As earlier posters have commented, I'm quite sure that Revival have lost no sleep whatsoever about being excommunicated from the bosom of the lofty TCA. It's hardly life-changing.

Derek,

While its great that PCR is a forum for lively debate, we will take down comments that we deem to be offensive to persons or parties.

Feel free to speak your mind, but let's keep the personal attacks out of it.

Thanks,

Andrew Wooden

Editor – PCR

To the best of my knowledge I've never offered DerekB an Iceland vol-au-vent, and frankly, I don't think I'd wish to - I rather fear he'd bite, and my rabies shots aren't up to date. But if he would care to stop hiding in anonymity I'll check our database and make sure we don't risk having any future contact with him

rogue elements. will always be around as long as there is something to be had take MP s as an example extras to be made without control